Cibao, When I hear about racism based on skin color in Latin America, the Dominican Republic is the #1 country that people mention. I also hear about Cuba and Brazil.
It's usually tourists who take things the wrong way. For example; they'll see Dominicans chasing after European tourists at resorts (which happens in nearly EVERY Latin American country) for ECONOMIC reasons and assume they're doing it to "fix the race", when in reality the women/men could care less about them and just take their money and go.
Quote:
A co-worker of mine said that she's been to all 3 countries and that most of the slum areas had a high concentration of dark skinned people. The people who looked White or Mestizo all lived in better upper class neighborhoods.
And I see many poor whites and light skinned mulattos in campos, the majority of my family was poor.
Quote:
I told her that I think it's the same here in the U.S. she said that she thought so too, but she said that she felt that Black Americans had a far better chance in moving way up in society that the Dark skinned people in D.R.
Really? Have you seen any of our politicians? People in the media?
And I could argue that the only shot at success that alot of black americans have is either a Basketball or a Microphone.
Cibao,
At the risk of seeming arrogant, few posters on this site have taken rudimentary economic courses, so, I would not exert much effort arguing with them about impoverished nations that have historically had small - if any - middle-class.
Black-Americans have more upward mobility opportunities than blacks in Nigeria and other black ruled nations. Invariably, East Indians, whites, mulattoes and certain others have inherited wealth and educational opportunities throughout many African nations that most of the blacks haven't. Racism is not negated in the U.S. simply because the economy has historically had growth and rightward shit that would astound African and Latin American nations, thus allowing more Black-Americans to join the domestic "game."
It's like debating literature with someone that is illiterate.
__________________ ~(p v q)
Lo there do I see my father. Lo there do I see my mother, my sisters, and my brothers. Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo they do call me. They bid me take my place among them in the halls of Valhalla. Where the brave, may live forever. -- The 13th Warrior
Cibao, When I hear about racism based on skin color in Latin America, the Dominican Republic is the #1 country that people mention. I also hear about Cuba and Brazil.
It's usually tourists who take things the wrong way. For example; they'll see Dominicans chasing after European tourists at resorts (which happens in nearly EVERY Latin American country) for ECONOMIC reasons and assume they're doing it to "fix the race", when in reality the women/men could care less about them and just take their money and go.
Quote:
A co-worker of mine said that she's been to all 3 countries and that most of the slum areas had a high concentration of dark skinned people. The people who looked White or Mestizo all lived in better upper class neighborhoods.
And I see many poor whites and light skinned mulattos in campos, the majority of my family was poor.
Quote:
I told her that I think it's the same here in the U.S. she said that she thought so too, but she said that she felt that Black Americans had a far better chance in moving way up in society that the Dark skinned people in D.R.
Really? Have you seen any of our politicians? People in the media?
And I could argue that the only shot at success that alot of black americans have is either a Basketball or a Microphone.
Cibao,
At the risk of seeming arrogant, few posters on this site have taken rudimentary economic courses, so, I would not exert much effort arguing with them about impoverished nations that have historically had small - if any - middle-class.
Black-Americans have more upward mobility opportunities than blacks in Nigeria and other black ruled nations. Invariably, East Indians, whites, mulattoes and certain others have inherited wealth and educational opportunities throughout many African nations that most of the blacks haven't. Racism is not negated in the U.S. simply because the economy has historically had growth and rightward shit that would astound African and Latin American nations, thus allowing more Black-Americans to join the domestic "game."
It's like debating literature with someone that is illiterate.
You know, I watch both your posts, closely. You both have very powerful things to say, which I believe come very informed points of view.
No, I do NOT have an economics background... but I do have a critical mind, though, and I know when to listen.
You both have strong points. Thank you, for posting.
And PS-I have lived in Baja, I have been poor, and I have been wealthy. I am about to lose my job (my grant ends) so fear is always lurking in the back part of my mind... even in the US, one can lack food, water, heat and shelter. I have been at those points in my life (even in the US) and I hope to avoid it in the future. But I assure you, having that perspective... and having watched other cultures, and been the "other" within them...
You speak the truth, often...
though this is not true:
Quote:
It's like debating literature with someone that is illiterate.
My original background is Literature... I could, and can, teach it to pigs... and it would not annoy the pig, and s/he would gain from it! (you know the old saying, yes?) That is because I love my subject SO much.. that I do not give up upon furthering it....
If I'm not at my best in posting, right now, forgive me. I'm afraid, right now... I have a short attention span... and my thoughts are not what they should be. Fear drives one to unexpected places.
Not to mention the Anglo Caribbean descended population there, the so-called "Cocolos". They don't appear to be seen in similar fashion to those perceived to be Haitian.
The ant-Haitianism in the DR, though regrettable, isn't a form of "white supremacy". Their issues with Haiti are rooted in the resentment many still have there for Haiti invading their country and ruling it for 20 years and the constant influx of illegal Haitians into a country slightly better off than Haiti. A black Dominican like Johnny Ventura isn't seen as Haitian.
His picture:
Are there color issues in the DR? Sure. But people exaggerate the extent of the problem and say stupid things like DR is an apartheid society and all black people are targeted there.
Hell, I was one of those people.
Exactly. We aren't going around alienating or harrasing Black Dominicans (who make up around 40%-50% of the country), we'd be harrassing almost half of the damn population! Most lighter Dominicans are fine with Black Dominicans and just see them as Dominicans and nothing else.
And I can't think of a single Dominican, whether black, white or in between who doesn't like Johnny Ventura, Wilfrido Vargas or Joseito Mateo.
Alright, I'll concede to your point concerning bleaching and such as I have not lived in the DR. However, the middle and upper classes are always okay with the lower class as long as the lower class keeps their mouth shut for the most part and accepts their subservient role (or at least that's been my learned experience). Also, as the darker skinned Dominicans, along with the Haitians, make up a majority of the poor I think it's fair to say that their might be some colonial systemic disadvantages just like anywhere else in the Western world.
Anyway, I've revoked my earlier comment concerning skin, money, bleaching, etc.
Quote:
Cibao,
I didn't think most did.
Even assuming most did... I would not care. I'm going to try and finish my education, hopefully obtain a secure, and financially rewarding career, and marry a sexy Latina. What Dominicans do or Black-Americans do or don't do, ultimately means little to me.
The entire city of Milwaukee can line up to jump off a bridge to their death. Tragic as it may be, I'm not following them. I've had enough of my own hardships, so, "society" is not who I'm waiting for to make a better world, or bring me happiness, and neither do I care what others do out of my power to control.
That's my view, but to each their own.
That's a somewhat existential-nihilistic stand point, you know? Not that I disagree, it's a dog eat dog world out there, but I found it interesting that's all.
How is this different from any other Latin American country or any other country in the world? And most of my family is made up of light skinned mulattos/triracials and some Whites and most grew up poor living in shacks.
There are exceptions to every rule Cibao, so just as I conceded to your point concerning the culture of skin and appearance perhaps you should take into account the fact that what happens to a select few cannot be considered as part of the norm. During Apartheid South Africa, despite the white monopoly of the market, there was still a percentage of poor whites or whites that functioned within the underground economy. And I never said that it was different in any other country in Latin America, but then again we weren't talking about Puerto Rico, Mexico, Argentina, etc., etc. I was simply addressing the DR cause that's what we were discussing. If you want to talk about Brasil ou Cuba then that's fine, we can do that...though I should point out that Fidel made racism illegal, as in punishable in the court of law, in Cuba.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cibao
Quote:
Cibao, When I hear about racism based on skin color in Latin America, the Dominican Republic is the #1 country that people mention. I also hear about Cuba and Brazil.
It's usually tourists who take things the wrong way. For example; they'll see Dominicans chasing after European tourists at resorts (which happens in nearly EVERY Latin American country) for ECONOMIC reasons and assume they're doing it to "fix the race", when in reality the women/men could care less about them and just take their money and go.
Quote:
A co-worker of mine said that she's been to all 3 countries and that most of the slum areas had a high concentration of dark skinned people. The people who looked White or Mestizo all lived in better upper class neighborhoods.
And I see many poor whites and light skinned mulattos in campos, the majority of my family was poor.
Quote:
I told her that I think it's the same here in the U.S. she said that she thought so too, but she said that she felt that Black Americans had a far better chance in moving way up in society that the Dark skinned people in D.R.
Really? Have you seen any of our politicians? People in the media?
And I could argue that the only shot at success that alot of black americans have is either a Basketball or a Microphone.
Cibao,
At the risk of seeming arrogant, few posters on this site have taken rudimentary economic courses, so, I would not exert much effort arguing with them about impoverished nations that have historically had small - if any - middle-class.
Black-Americans have more upward mobility opportunities than blacks in Nigeria and other black ruled nations. Invariably, East Indians, whites, mulattoes and certain others have inherited wealth and educational opportunities throughout many African nations that most of the blacks haven't. Racism is not negated in the U.S. simply because the economy has historically had growth and rightward shit that would astound African and Latin American nations, thus allowing more Black-Americans to join the domestic "game."
It's like debating literature with someone that is illiterate.
Economics is almost totally irrelevant when discussing the dichotomy of structural injustice within a country or community. Economics is raw stats, numbers, and predictions/estimations based on such macro aspects of GDP and per capita income. When considering this, economics will not detail how individuals, such as the unfortunate women and children who prostitute themselves for money, function within society or why they are made to function that way. Those contributions, through such state collections as taxation, are figured under a category of other instead of being considered part of the "service" industry. Economics is math, plain and simple, and doesn't give a damn about history and social inequality. Just ask the IMF and World Bank.
Further, black upward mobility in the United States is actually based on several factors such as Affirmative Action (which has improved the odds of all minorities to progress within US society), factory jobs or service sector jobs that offered middle class salaries (e.g.- Detroit), and a few other factors such as a higher percentage of blacks (primarily females) earning college degrees of some sort. Additionally, the relative small African-American population in the United States could contribute to the fact that there are such high percentages within the middle.
However, once again, this has little to do with economics, which could care less about such aspects as Affirmative Action, as the system only records data such as consumer purchasing, the mean wages of certain ethnic groups based on accumulated statistics and records, etc.
__________________ “Now is the accepted time, not tomorrow, not some more convenient season. It is today that our best work can be done and not some future day or future year. It is today that we fit ourselves for the greater usefulness of tomorrow. Today is the seed time, now are the hours of work, and tomorrow comes the harvest and the playtime.”-W.E.B DuBois.
Cibao, When I hear about racism based on skin color in Latin America, the Dominican Republic is the #1 country that people mention. I also hear about Cuba and Brazil.
It's usually tourists who take things the wrong way. For example; they'll see Dominicans chasing after European tourists at resorts (which happens in nearly EVERY Latin American country) for ECONOMIC reasons and assume they're doing it to "fix the race", when in reality the women/men could care less about them and just take their money and go.
Quote:
A co-worker of mine said that she's been to all 3 countries and that most of the slum areas had a high concentration of dark skinned people. The people who looked White or Mestizo all lived in better upper class neighborhoods.
And I see many poor whites and light skinned mulattos in campos, the majority of my family was poor.
Quote:
I told her that I think it's the same here in the U.S. she said that she thought so too, but she said that she felt that Black Americans had a far better chance in moving way up in society that the Dark skinned people in D.R.
Really? Have you seen any of our politicians? People in the media?
And I could argue that the only shot at success that alot of black americans have is either a Basketball or a Microphone.
Those are not the only shot black Americans have, some Black Americans "CHOSE" to be singers and ball players. At least they have a choice. And have you seen our Black politicans and Black people in the media?
__________________ NOTHING LIKE THE GOOD OLD U.S.A.
PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN.
Those are not the only shot black Americans have, some Black Americans "CHOSE" to be singers and ball players. At least they have a choice. And have you seen our Black politicans and Black people in the media?
Alot of Black Americans have no choice. And America is way better off in general than the Dominican Republic.
There are exceptions to every rule Cibao, so just as I conceded to your point concerning the culture of skin and appearance perhaps you should take into account the fact that what happens to a select few cannot be considered as part of the norm. During Apartheid South Africa, despite the white monopoly of the market, there was still a percentage of poor whites or whites that functioned within the underground economy.
But this exception to the rule is pretty damn common, and it has been since the early/mid 1800's (around the time the Spaniards lost interest in the Dominican Republic in favor of other colonies.)
I wouldn't say I have an economics back ground either. I have taken basic economic courses and that's it. That's nothing impressive. But if you're going to get educated you might as well use what you learn - at least to the best of your ability.
__________________ ~(p v q)
Lo there do I see my father. Lo there do I see my mother, my sisters, and my brothers. Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo they do call me. They bid me take my place among them in the halls of Valhalla. Where the brave, may live forever. -- The 13th Warrior
I wouldn't say I have an economics back ground either. I have taken basic economic courses and that's it. That's nothing impressive. But if you're going to get educated you might as well use what you learn - at least to the best of your ability.
Yes, but you guys defintely "come at" this with an economics leaning,,, which is good.
Economics is almost totally irrelevant when discussing the dichotomy of structural injustice within a country or community. Economics is raw stats, numbers, and predictions/estimations based on such macro aspects of GDP and per capita income. When considering this, economics will not detail how individuals, such as the unfortunate women and children who prostitute themselves for money, function within society or why they are made to function that way. Those contributions, through such state collections as taxation, are figured under a category of other instead of being considered part of the "service" industry. Economics is math, plain and simple, and doesn't give a damn about history and social inequality. Just ask the IMF and World Bank.
Further, black upward mobility in the United States is actually based on several factors such as Affirmative Action (which has improved the odds of all minorities to progress within US society), factory jobs or service sector jobs that offered middle class salaries (e.g.- Detroit), and a few other factors such as a higher percentage of blacks (primarily females) earning college degrees of some sort. Additionally, the relative small African-American population in the United States could contribute to the fact that there are such high percentages within the middle.
However, once again, this has little to do with economics, which could care less about such aspects as Affirmative Action, as the system only records data such as consumer purchasing, the mean wages of certain ethnic groups based on accumulated statistics and records, etc.
Economics is not irrelevant and it is more than just numbers, it is one of the branches of social science.
It's obvious you're intelligent and have educated yourself by a personal life of reading if not through formal schooling. I do not disagree with some of the points you have made above, in the quoted portion, but I do disagree with you that economics is irrelevant.
Affirmative Action did less for Black-Americans in Detroit than organized labor did with collective bargaining which directly effected the household incomes of hundreds of thousands of Detroit's citizenry. And organized labor was only one variable. There needed to be jobs, and jobs with the potential for middle class earnings for Detroit's citizenry to even begin to dream about democratizing a middle-class across its population.
When Black-Americans were stuck in the rural South after Reconstruction and sharecropping essentially bound them into debt slavery, what upward mobility did many of them have? As percentage of their population it was negligible.
The per capita GDP's in high income nations like the U.S. and Japan, compared to middle-income nations like the Dominican Republic and Mexico, infer rising wages that followed inflation, which corresponded to historical economic growths or stagnation.
Detroit at it's height had a million or so people. Roughly around a million. The Dominican Republics population is close to 10 million. If I remember correctly, New York's metropolitan region alone has a larger population then that.
Detroit during its height had a very strong economy and was a heavy industrial city. The Dominican Republic as a nation with a population large than Detroit? Even know the CIA world fact book reports 14% of the DR's population is employed in agruiculture, and as of 2004 estimates, 42% percent of its population living below the poverty line (compared to 12% in the United States).
So, you have a nation with no comparative Detroit, Chicago, L.A., nothing even comparative to a Milwaukee or Cleveland, and no international real estate market like London or New York. A tiny nation stemming from European colonization like the rest of the Americas, but one with almost half its population more impoverished than the city of Toronto in Canada, yet you think the 11% of it's black population largely confined to abject poverty should come as a surprise?
The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $46,900.
Quote:
The Dominican Republic has enjoyed strong GDP growth since 2005 and continued to post sound gains through mid-2008. The global recession, however, had a significant impact on GDP growth in the latter half of the year as tourism and remittances, two of the Dominican Republic's most important economic contributors, showed signs of slowing. The economy is highly dependent upon the US, the destination for about two-thirds of exports. Remittances from the US amount to about a tenth of GDP, equivalent to almost half of exports and three-quarters of tourism receipts. The country has long been viewed primarily as an exporter of sugar, coffee, and tobacco but in recent years the service sector has overtaken agriculture as the economy's largest employer due to growth in tourism and free trade zones.
__________________ ~(p v q)
Lo there do I see my father. Lo there do I see my mother, my sisters, and my brothers. Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo they do call me. They bid me take my place among them in the halls of Valhalla. Where the brave, may live forever. -- The 13th Warrior
DeCoste, look at this Eminem video (Beautiful) and reading the opening of the video. Assuming the figures are true, in 1950 the states of Michigan along with 7 other states in the U.S., collectively produced an amazing 36% of the worlds GNP.
I'll hazard to guess Detroit's million man population produced a higher GDP in 1950 than the whole GDP of the Dominican Republic with a larger population.
Lo there do I see my father. Lo there do I see my mother, my sisters, and my brothers. Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo they do call me. They bid me take my place among them in the halls of Valhalla. Where the brave, may live forever. -- The 13th Warrior
Six degrees of separation from Dominican Sammy Sosa's 'rejuvenating' cream to upper 'Black-American' mobility in the US all the way to a crazy ass woman injecting cooking oil in her face.
__________________ To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker. - Fredrick Douglass
I believe in human beings and that all human beings should be respected as such, regardless of their color - Malcolm X
An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Economics is not irrelevant and it is more than just numbers, it is one of the branches of social science.
It's obvious you're intelligent and have educated yourself by a personal life of reading if not through formal schooling. I do not disagree with some of the points you have made above, in the quoted portion, but I do disagree with you that economics is irrelevant.
Affirmative Action did less for Black-Americans in Detroit than organized labor did with collective bargaining which directly effected the household incomes of hundreds of thousands of Detroit's citizenry. And organized labor was only one variable. There needed to be jobs, and jobs with the potential for middle class earnings for Detroit's citizenry to even begin to dream about democratizing a middle-class across its population.
When Black-Americans were stuck in the rural South after Reconstruction and sharecropping essentially bound them into debt slavery, what upward mobility did many of them have? As percentage of their population it was negligible.
The per capita GDP's in high income nations like the U.S. and Japan, compared to middle-income nations like the Dominican Republic and Mexico, infer rising wages that followed inflation, which corresponded to historical economic growths or stagnation.
Detroit at it's height had a million or so people. Roughly around a million. The Dominican Republics population is close to 10 million. If I remember correctly, New York's metropolitan region alone has a larger population then that.
Detroit during its height had a very strong economy and was a heavy industrial city. The Dominican Republic as a nation with a population large than Detroit? Even know the CIA world fact book reports 14% of the DR's population is employed in agruiculture, and as of 2004 estimates, 42% percent of its population living below the poverty line (compared to 12% in the United States).
So, you have a nation with no comparative Detroit, Chicago, L.A., nothing even comparative to a Milwaukee or Cleveland, and no international real estate market like London or New York. A tiny nation stemming from European colonization like the rest of the Americas, but one with almost half its population more impoverished than the city of Toronto in Canada, yet you think the 11% of it's black population largely confined to abject poverty should come as a surprise?
Well, LaCosa, it seems you have succeeded in educating me beyond the rudimentary lessons on economics I had received years prior which seemed, to me, to seek much more empirical, quantitative evidence instead of blending both quantitative with qualitative research. That was a mistake on my part.
__________________ “Now is the accepted time, not tomorrow, not some more convenient season. It is today that our best work can be done and not some future day or future year. It is today that we fit ourselves for the greater usefulness of tomorrow. Today is the seed time, now are the hours of work, and tomorrow comes the harvest and the playtime.”-W.E.B DuBois.
Well, LaCosa, it seems you have succeeded in educating me beyond the rudimentary lessons on economics I had received years prior which seemed, to me, to seek much more empirical, quantitative evidence instead of blending both quantitative with qualitative research. That was a mistake on my part.
There are the terms negative and positive externalities in economics.
In economics, an externality or spillover of an economic transaction is an impact on a party that is not directly involved in the transaction. In such a case, prices do not reflect the full costs or benefits in production or consumption of a product or service. An advantageous impact is called an external benefit or positive externality, while a detrimental impact is called an external cost or negative externality. Producers and consumers in a market may either not bear all of the costs or not reap all of the benefits of the economic activity. For example, manufacturing that causes air pollution imposes costs on the whole society, while fire-proofing a home improves the fire safety of neighbors.
Quote:
An individual planting an attractive garden in front of his or her house may provide benefits to others living in the area, and even financial benefits in the form of increased property values for all property owners.
The example of the garden is also used as an example of positive externalities where aesthetics are concerned, for psychological value, and not just potential financial gain. In other words, others in the neighborhood might find their surroundings more pleasant, with the improved aesthetics created by the individual planting an attractive garden. And of course, this is subjective and qualitative.
__________________ ~(p v q)
Lo there do I see my father. Lo there do I see my mother, my sisters, and my brothers. Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo they do call me. They bid me take my place among them in the halls of Valhalla. Where the brave, may live forever. -- The 13th Warrior
(you know the old saying, yes?) That is because I love my subject SO much.. that I do not give up upon furthering it....
